A lot of people are talking hybrids, but the true cost to own has not been really told too well. It's been said, even at $4 gas, an H3 is cheaper to drive to 150,000 miles, than what it would cost to get a Prius in that same distance.
Is that true?|||Hi,
Toyota Prius, Toyota Camry Hybrid, Honda Insight, Honda Civic Hybrid
this is a complete myth, based on a Connecticutt college newspaper article repeating a very faulty study without bothering to check the faulty information.
I'll post the complete answer as to why, stay with it and you'll see why this is simply not true.
full answer, get comfy:
The entire hybrid battery stack actually costs $2985.13. I asked a Toyota Master tech with 16 years experience how long it would take to install if one had to be replaced, and I was told less than 3 hours at the top rate of $95 an hour, or about $285.00.
No where near "thousands to replace every few years".
You can't fool all of the people all of the time.
We'll start with the batteries and then go into maintenance, since part of this myth is a Prius needs more maintenance than a standard vehicle (completely false). Less maintenance also means less components to make and less to throw away or rebuild.
BTW, the Prius is rated an AT-PZEV, or Advanced Technology-Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle. That means the Prius puts out no emissions during part of the time it is driving and operating. Almost every other vehicle on the road does not come close to that mark.
Speaking for the hybrid batteries, there has yet to be a person who has paid for a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) hybrid to be replaced due to defects or failure.
Hybrids also use a lead acid battery like any other vehicle. But the hybrid battery is a nickel metal hydride one and they do not break down like lead acid batteries. Also, dumping any battery, lead acid or not, is extremely illegal and people love to prosecute environmental offenders these days.
There have been NiMH replaced due to accidents or owner abuse or attempted modification (one guy drilled a screw into his NiMH stack trying to install a big sub-woofer in the back).
Anything else you've seen or heard is a myth. Common sense says if these things were failing, it would be all over the news. The Prius have been in the US for nine, almost ten, years.
As far as the energy and materials for the NiMH batteries go:
Our federal government has tested NiMH batteries from the Prius and discovered they still maintain 90% of their capacity after 100,000 miles. Look up the testing at the DOE website.
BTW, the price for a new NiMH battery for either generation of the Prius is $2985.13, not the $5-10,000.00 that people like to throw around the internet. Call your local Toyota dealer and ask for the parts department.
And the current record is over 360,000 miles on a Prius using the original NiMH battery and hybrid system. Many Prius are used as taxis and also by the State of New York and Colorado as state municipal vehicles racking up 100,000-200,000 miles without issue on a regular basis.
Speaking for Toyota, there is an 800 number on each NiMH hybrid battery, and that number allows a person to turn in that battery for a $200.00 bounty. That's assuming a NiMH even gets out of the hands of an auto salvage company who will sell it to the top bidder. Who's going to throw something like that into a dump?
The entire battery, just like almost every bit of those vehicles, is completely recyclable.
The alkaline batteries that people use and throw out are a different type of battery than what is in vehicles like the Prius. The Hybrid Synergy Drive unit that Toyota developed is designed to keep the NiMH battery in a mid-peak charge range, trying not to top-charge it or, of course, completely discharge it.
That enables a NiMH to last fairly indefinitely. Obviously, there will be some breakdown eventually, but one of the great things about the Prius system, for example, is the NiMH battery is composed of 36 individual cells. If one cell goes bad, it can be replaced and the remainder stay. That is what's happened when Toyota has torture tested the Prius in Alaska and Death Valley.
Working with Toyota, I know about their commitments to recycling and the environment (Toyota's web site lists environmental reports dating back many years). At least 11 of Toyota's North American manufacturing plants produce zero landfill waste.
As far as the supposed "environmental impact" of the NiMH batteries in the Toyota and Lexus hybrids...
The plant in Sudbury where Toyota buys approximately 1.5% of the plant's annual nickel output can be seen using this Google maps address:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q%26amp;hl=en%26amp;la鈥?/a>
Sudbury, Ontario is called the mining capital of the world for good reason.
The Sudbury plant has been in continuous operation since the rock was blasted to make way for the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1883.
That means that nickel has been mined there for the last 125 years. The Prius has been on the road since 1998. What about all the environmental damage done for the 115 years before the Prius ever came along?
On to the maintenance of a Prius...
The cost of operation of a Prius is a little less than .11 cents per mile for each 100,000 miles of operation. I don't add in insurance, bank interest, or the cost of the vehicle itself, because all of those can vary based on each owner's situation. Add them to the .11 cents per mile amount.
A Prius will maintain 51-53 average if driven properly.
This means doubling your usual stopping distance and taking your foot off the accelerator at that double distance to shut down the ICE sooner when coming to a stop and then pressing the brake at your normal stopping distance gently to the stop.
Accelerate like there is a egg under the accelerator pedal and you're trying to roll the egg out, not make omelets. In other words, driving defensively and learning to get the most out of the hybrid drivetrain.
As far as the cost to operate a Prius over 100,000 miles:
- There is no steering belt or steering pump, the system is electronic and uses electric motors. There is no belt to wear and no pump to lose fluid out of. No additional parts to replace or maintain.
- There is no timing belt, there is a timing chain that is self-adjusting. No part to replace.
- There is no accelerator cable or cable linkage, once again, it is electronic. So there is no loss of acceleration over time from cable stretch and wear like on a standard vehicle. No additional parts to replace or maintain.
- The brake pads should never need to be replaced, they are hardly used due to the regenerative braking system. No parts to replace or maintain.
- As I said, you never touch the nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery or the hybrid system, it is self-regulating. No parts to replace or maintain.
- The gas engine is not tuned up for 100,000 miles. At even 15,000 miles per year, that's about seven years. And then...
- four spark plugs run $12.00 each, four is $48.00 (the wires aren't replaced and there are no distributors because each cylinder has a direct injection module and they are not replaced)
- coolant is $15.50 a gallon and you need two gallons, or $31.00 (if you live in an extremely hot or cold climate, you might need to change the coolant 2X in 100,000 miles so figure $62.00 there)
- air filters are $18.00 for the engine and $25.00 for the cabin and are replaced every 15,000 miles. So over 100,000 miles, we'll go high and say 7 sets of air filters at $301.00.
- at 100,000 miles, inspect the wiring, change the oil (might as well, since you're there) lube, inspect and flush the brake lines, flush the coolant if necessary. It runs about $225.00, which includes parts.
- the sealed, continuously variable transmission fluid is not changed until 90,000 miles, about $140.00
- The OEM (Original Equipment from the Manufacturer) Goodyear Integrity's are about $113.00 each, installed. The originals are low-rolling resistance, specialty tires, just like a truck or sports car. They will last about 35,000 or so. Three sets of 4 OEM tires- over 105,000 miles- will run $1356.00 installed (3 sets of 4 at $113.00 each = $1356.00).
- Oil and filter changes every 3000 miles and tire rotations every 6000 miles, just like any other vehicle. Oil changes are about $26.00 and tire rotations are about $18.00, or about $884.00 for oil changes and $306.00 for rotations over 100,000 miles
So, over 100,000 miles, for regular service, a Prius should run about $3322.00, rounded to $3400.00, or about .034 cents per mile.
All of my service and parts amounts come from a local Toyota dealership (not the corner cheapy lube), and do not figure in any kind of promotions, coupons, or discounts. I called on 4/11/08.
With gas at $3.75 a gallon, a Prius will run about $7,500 over 100,000 miles, or about .07 cents per mile (100,000 miles / 50 mpg (I get 51.7 mpg currently as an average, city and highway, auto temp w/air and stereo on) = 2000 gallons of gas X $3.75 a gallon = $7,500).
So a Prius will run about $11000 ($3400 + $7500), or about .11 cents per mile, to operate over 100,000 miles.
Any vehicle you are considering should be put to this kind of scrutiny. A vehicle is a major investment and it will cost you money to run properly. Please print this info out and use it to compare any vehicles by calling your local dealership and asking the parts and service departments what is involved in maintenance over 100,000 miles.
So, there are some of the details, but the bottom line is the Prius does not pollute more than a standard vehicle, no matter what it is.
Any more details, let me know or check my other posts here in Answers.|||Let's do some math.
Hummer H3 with 5-cylinder 3.7L engine, manual tranny (the most fuel-efficient version of the H3) gets 15 miles per gallon combined city/hwy: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008selem鈥?/a>
Prius gets 46 miles per gallon combined city/hwy: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008鈥?/a>
- For the H3 at 15mpg, 150,000 miles = 10,000 gallons of gas.
- For the Prius at 46mpg, 150,000 miles = 3261 gallons of gas.
- Gas cost for Prius would cost less than 1/3 that of the H3.
If you look at the maintenance costs:
- H3 has a curb weight of about 5,000 pounds and needs a lot of force to stop, 30,000 miles per set of brake pads. 150,000 miles = 5 sets of brake pads, 2 sets of rotors.
- Prius uses regenerative braking and does not need a brake pad change until 100,000 miles. 150,000 miles = 1 set of brake pads, no rotors.
- H3 requires differential lube every 20,000 miles. Prius does not.
Prius wins here too.
As far as the hybrid battery in the Prius goes, it's covered by Toyota with a standard 8-year / 100,000 mile warranty. If it fails before then, Toyota will replace it FREE. The Prius used as taxicabs in Vancouver has racked up over 200,000 miles with no problems with the battery whatsoever: http://autos.canada.com/green/story.html鈥?/a>
Whoever tells you the H3 is cheaper to operate than Prius probably failed grade-school math.|||I dont' see how.
The only downfall of the hybrid is its battery, which has to be replaced every 4-5 years and, ironically, is very wastefull.
But compare 45mpg to 17mpg over the life of the vehicle and I doubt the Hummer will be cheaper.|||Where did you get that information, from a Hummer salesman?? The Hummer is incredibly expensive to own, perhaps one of the most expensive vehicles under $50,000. Hummers have terrible repair records. The Prius is bullet-proof, it is so reliable.|||Not true. Look up the MPG for each vehicle. Miles per gallon will be horrid for the hummer compared to the toyota prius.|||They are probably talking about and repairs costs. Those Hondas look like they are built very cheap, but maybe it is just me.|||There's no such car as a HONDA Prius. Toyota makes the Prius. Is this a trick question???|||nope a prius is smaller=less money for gas
by far hummers are most expensive but the safest thats true|||LOL, hell no. Why do you think GM is thinking about putting the Hummer out of commission?|||I thought Prius was Toyota?|||i cant imagine|||NO WAY!|||I either forgot to take my medication or I am reading this wrong|||Hm, not sure exactly what you are comparing...
Do you mean the Toyota Prius, or the Honda Civic Hybrid, or the Honda Insight, or the Honda Accord Hybrid?
I'll assume that you are comparing the Hummer H3 and the Toyota Prius.
According to Edmunds.com, the True Cost to Own over 5 years is (with depreciation, financing, insurance, fuel, maintenance %26amp; repairs, taxes %26amp; fees):
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/hummer/h鈥?/a>
Hummer H3: $66,769, with a starting cash price of $35,070, equating to an average of $0.89 per mile
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/toyota/p鈥?/a>
Toyota Prius: $42,780, with a starting cash price of $24,889, equating to an average of $0.57
The Prius is not only cheaper than the Hummer H3, but the Prius receives Edmunds' Lowest True Cost to Own award in its market segment (sedan under $25,000): http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/tco/2008/鈥?/a>
You can use Edmunds True Cost to Own calculator to see other vehicles, at: http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/tco/2008/鈥?/a>
Meanwhile, if you're talking just initial purchase price and cost of fuel... Use the governmental fuel economy testing, as it is the same test done to all vehicles so that they can be accurately compared to one another.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2鈥?/a>
We'll use the 5cyl automatic version of the Hummer H3, as that has the "best" fuel economy of the 2008 H3 offerings, at 14mpg city, 18 mpg highway, 15mpg combined. Based on 15,000 annual miles and $3.39 per gallon, the EPA estimates an annual fuel cost of $3392. (multiply by 10 to get your 150,000 miles)
The MSRP on a Hummer H3 is $31,340 + $1,695 for the automatic transmission. http://www.hummer.com/hummerjsp/home.jsp
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2鈥?/a>
The 2008 Toyota Prius has the best fuel economy of all vehicles offered in the US for 2008, at 48mpg city, 45mpg highway, 46mpg combined. Based on 15,000 annual miles and $3.39 per gallon, the EPA estimates an annual fuel cost of $1103. (multiply by 10 to get your 150,000 miles.)
MSRP on the US Prius is $21,500. http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/
So, the Hummer H3 costs more to purchase, and also costs more in fuel costs annually. So how is the H3 supposed to be cheaper to own than a Prius?
The Prius consistently is rated on the best bets for used cars and new cars lists, too.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/鈥?/a>
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/鈥?/a>
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/bestbet/a鈥?/a>
compare Prius' ratings: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Toyota/Priu鈥?/a> with the H3's ratings: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Hummer/H3/2鈥?/a>
Meanwhile, there's a lot of myth, urban legend, and misinformation out there on hybrid vehicle batteries and vehicle production, thanks to a flawed marketing paper by CNW and a poorly researched student newspaper article that keep getting quoted...
Anyhow, I suggest reading:
Prius Versus Hummer: A Nickel for Your Thoughts: http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/鈥?/a>
"I read an article stating the Prius has a worse impact on the environment than a Hummer because of the enormous pollution created in making the car鈥檚 batteries. True?" : http://www.straightdope.com/columns/0804鈥?/a>
Hummer versus Prius: "Dust to Dust" Report Misleads the Media and Public with Bad Science: http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_鈥?/a>
Prius Versus HUMMER: Exploding the Myth: http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_New鈥?/a>
Giving Directions: No, the Hummer Actually Isn't More Energy Efficient Than A Prius, Let's Put This "Debate" To Rest: http://www.betterworldclub.com/articles/鈥?/a>
Dust in the Wind: Hybrids' Total Energy Cost: http://www.hybridcars.com/environment-st鈥?/a>
Hybrid Battery Toxicity: http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxici鈥?/a>
Heard the One About the Hummer?: http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/s鈥?/a>
Usually the mythic "article" from The Mail on the nickel in the hybrid cars' NiMH batteries is quoted from a now retracted article. The retraction that clears up this bit of misinformation is at: http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live鈥?/a>
(They were using data from the early 1970's about the INCO-Sudbury nickel mine, which was more than 20 years before the first hybrids needed NiMH batteries, and the plant has greatly cleaned themselves up and reforested the area since then. If you were to add up the amount of nickel in the million+ hybrids sold since 1997, the total is less than 1% of the world's annual nickel production (far more nickel is used for stainless steel, for example).)
Here's the 2004 Toyota Prius Green Report (life cycle assessment): http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji鈥?/a>
(you'll need to download the Japanese fonts for your PDF reader in order to read it, but the entire document is written in English.)
Over the lifespan of the Prius, when compared to a comparable mid-
sized gasoline vehicle, the Prius comes out ahead in the life cycle assessment (LCA) for airborne emissions for CO2, NOx, SOx, HC, but actually does worse for PM (thanks to the material and vehicle production stages). Measured lifespan is given as 10 years use/100,000km. The CO2 break-even point for the 2004 Prius compared to this unnamed gasoline vehicle is given at 20,000km. (more CO2 is emitted during Prius production, but the Prius makes up for it over it's driven lifetime.)
Another neat thing is that the Prius is one of the first uses of Toyota's Eco-Plastic (plastic made from plants, as opposed to petroleum products). The battery is recycleable (NiMH), as is much of the car (steel and aluminum body, for example).
As for the batteries themselves:
The lead-acid (Pb-A) 12v accessory batteries in hybrids tend to be smaller than those found in every traditional gasoline vehicle. Recycling programs are in place for traditional lead-acid batteries.
All the hybrids on the market use NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) batteries, which contain no heavy metals (so they're not hazardous waste, like the Pb-A batteries), and are easily recycled.
The hybrid battery packs in the Prius have labels on them for whom to contact to recycle them. See the HV Battery Pack Recycling section in the Prius Emergency Response Guides.
page 11 (of the printed version): http://techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/1鈥?/a>
page 19 (of the printed version): http://techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/2鈥?/a>
To quote Toyota's press release:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_librar鈥?/a>
http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/Vie鈥?/a>
%26lt;quote%26gt;
How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?
The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?
Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.
%26lt;/quote%26gt;
There are no commercially-available plug-in hybrids on the market so far. (So you cannot plug them in, other than the same gas station pump that most other regular cars use.) The hybrid battery is recharged either through regenerative braking (kinetic energy from coasting/slowing down spins a generator to make potential energy in the battery) or by taking excess power from the gasoline engine (use the gasoline engine as a generator) to recharge the hybrid battery. There is no plug. No charging off the mains/local electric supply.|||You mean Toyota Prius.
Honda's Hybrid cars are Civic and Insight.
The H3 is about the same.
The Toyota Batteries cost around $4000 to replace every 2-7 years depending on how much you drive.
But it gets at least 20mpg better than the Hummer H3.
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